First of all, I hate what’s happened to the US, but with that said…
There was a good decade or so where Russia was running a pretty obvious disinfo campaign against US citizens while literally setting up a Manchurian candidate in Donald trump. We already know to some extent that Europe had intel on the situation and really didn’t do jack shit to try and prevent what has turned into Russian backed dictatorship.
So I disagree with you on the subject of alienation. I would argue that the EU set itself up to be alienated through its inaction.
On the subject of allies, I don’t think there is a single person in the US that really believes it doesn’t need allies. The US has just traded its western allies for eastern ones. Trump has been cozying up to other dictators around the world since his first term. These days he’s very friendly with Putin.
So again, I disagree with you.
And I find it pretty fucking hilarious that you’re talking about the US cooperating with the EU when the EU has done fuck all to help prevent what’s happened to it. If there is war between these nations, there is almost no way the US will be allied with the EU. The US is a dictatorship and it will ally itself with other dictatorships.
when the EU has done fuck all to help prevent what’s happened to it.
Oh boy the ignorance of that statement is so immense I don’t even know where to begin.
First of all the cooperation of 28 countries to prevent war among themselves is far from not doing jack shit. Secondly EU has worked hard to avoid war through cooperation, but not as much militarily to end them. But still most European countries have been at the side of USA when they asked for it.
I’m sorry, your narrow ignorant perspective is simply not a level I really care to debate at.
I’m the ignorant one??? what the fuck did the EU do to help the US with obvious Russian interference in their politics? If you’re truly not ignorant, like you say you aren’t, then you could see what was happening. With Russia literally installing a russian asset into the US presidency. What the fuck did the EU do to prevent that?? Fucking nothing.
And this idea that the US was the isolationist one in this situation, when the EU literally just watched as Putin Installed a dictator of his choosing, while sitting on their metaphorical hands, is completely hypocritical.
How do you imagine it’s the EU responsibility to protect USA against Russian interference? And should have special knowledge about it to protect USA that wasn’t supplied? That simply doesn’t make any sense at all.
USA is supposed to be the “intelligence” superpower, having a huge spy network with facilities spread out among allies, and I know for a fact my own country has helped USA a lot on intelligence. and is a 7 eyes member. We were also the ones warning about nuclear weapons being on the way to Cuba back in the 60’s. And we have allowed US military on Greenland.
Why would we know more about Russian interference than USA themselves? But apart from that the Steele Dossier was from UK, and it clearly indicated Trump is a Russian asset, but the Americans have ignored ALL proof that Trump is obviously compromised, and elected him not just once but twice.
For instance I know one who was in the Danish marine, and they had top secret American spy equipment on board, that was kept secret also from Denmark, with no knowledge about what the equipment was, and what intelligence was gathered. Still that was allowed because USA was considered an ally.
One more insane comment like the 2 before and I block you.
Apparently you never fucking heard of the cold war and all the shit the US did to protect Europe during it. Maybe you should open a fucking book and fuck off.
I just gave you an example of immensely important intelligence that was given to USA from Denmark during the cold war. And you ask if I ever heard about it!
You are insane, I have hereby blocked you. Seek help.
The thinking that any of the current fallout in the US is foreign-led is not giving any good explanations for the reality we observe and therefore procides no good solutions. What you’re observing is primarily driven by the oligarch class in the US finding new ways to extract profit. That drives everything. It drives Fox, it drives the Heritage Foundation, it drives turning both parties in oligarch-serving machines. External factors are only helping accelerate it a bit. Feeding this machine with resources from the outside is a bad idea since most of those resources would be captured by the oligatchs. The only way out of this is to get an internal populist left movement to curb their power, reposses most of their resources and redestribute them to the masses.
If you don’t think it was foreign led then you have no idea what you’re talking about. It has been entirely led by Russia. Yes the oligarchs in the US have been a part of it, but they were unified and driven together by Russian interference in US politics. You want to ignore the part that Russia played in this, then you choose to rewrite history.
And your “only way out of this” – why don’t you tell me in small steps exactly how that happens. Lets hear it.
Oligarchs have been unified by their pursuit for profit long before Russia became able to push any sort of effective propaganda to Americans. The Heritage Foundation that peddles these ideas did not emerge from Russian interference in 2016. Neither did Fox whose entire purpose is peddling domestic oligarch propaganda. Neither did the Chicago School of Economics anti-worker takeover of national economic policy. US oligarchs did not offshore middle class jobs or bust unions on Russian advice. This has been going on for a lot longer than the last decade. The pushback started as a result of FDR’s redistribution policies that cut US oligarch wealth in the aftermath of the Great Depression. First slowly, then more quickly.
And your “only way out of this” – why you don’t you tell me in small steps exactly how that happens. Lets hear it.
Campaign, donate and vote for “far-left” D candidates at every gov’t level - like AOC, Zohran, etc. Campaign, donate and vote for “far-left” independent candidatss where there’s no such candidates in that district. Join a union. Join a local socialist org. Eventually you’d tilt the balance of power in various gov’t institutions. Whenever you do that, you tax the rich to death. But that goes without saying cause every “far-left” candidate has that on their agenda.
E: FWIW, was where you are in my thinking a few years ago. I didn’t know as much about the historical development of econimic policy in the US, who drove it, who got richer, who got poorer, what tools were being used to do one or the other.
E2: And in case it isn’t clear how taxing the rich to death solves the problem, it deprives them from the money they need to buy the democratic system. It puts that money back into the majority’s pockets. Politicians have to fight for that money and therefore go back to serving the majority. They start passing the laws that you want passed. Like curbing online propaganda from both Zuckerberg and Putin. And many others that serve you instead of Bezos.
If on the other hand you eliminate all foreign propagnda with a magic wand today, all domestic propaganda will remain. Democratic control will remain in the hands of the oligarchs. They would keep making Americans poorer and poorer while scapegoating yet another group or actor. The most impoverished would completely lose faith in the democratic system because it no longer solves their problems. When the oligarchs propose a candidate who promises to solve the poverty (they themselves created) by dismantling democracy (since democracy is the only nonviolent tool that can strip them of their wealth), the desperate would vote for that. As FDR, and many others have explained a century ago.
Yeah we failed because we didn’t use all avenues available to us. Including insisting upon the resources of our supposed allies. Although I feel those resources should have been volunteered considering the clear and present danger to our democracy and the fact that these NATO states were supposed to be our allies. instead we got next to nothing.
This alliance has felt incredibly one sided and at this point, with the US being heavily controlled by Russia I almost feel like Europe is just reaping what its sown. If there is a war in europe, europe will suffer, and it is their own faults for being willfully isolationist.
First of all, I hate what’s happened to the US, but with that said…
There was a good decade or so where Russia was running a pretty obvious disinfo campaign against US citizens while literally setting up a Manchurian candidate in Donald trump. We already know to some extent that Europe had intel on the situation and really didn’t do jack shit to try and prevent what has turned into Russian backed dictatorship.
So I disagree with you on the subject of alienation. I would argue that the EU set itself up to be alienated through its inaction.
On the subject of allies, I don’t think there is a single person in the US that really believes it doesn’t need allies. The US has just traded its western allies for eastern ones. Trump has been cozying up to other dictators around the world since his first term. These days he’s very friendly with Putin.
So again, I disagree with you.
And I find it pretty fucking hilarious that you’re talking about the US cooperating with the EU when the EU has done fuck all to help prevent what’s happened to it. If there is war between these nations, there is almost no way the US will be allied with the EU. The US is a dictatorship and it will ally itself with other dictatorships.
Oh boy the ignorance of that statement is so immense I don’t even know where to begin.
First of all the cooperation of 28 countries to prevent war among themselves is far from not doing jack shit. Secondly EU has worked hard to avoid war through cooperation, but not as much militarily to end them. But still most European countries have been at the side of USA when they asked for it.
I’m sorry, your narrow ignorant perspective is simply not a level I really care to debate at.
WHAT FUCKING COOPERATION!?
I’m the ignorant one??? what the fuck did the EU do to help the US with obvious Russian interference in their politics? If you’re truly not ignorant, like you say you aren’t, then you could see what was happening. With Russia literally installing a russian asset into the US presidency. What the fuck did the EU do to prevent that?? Fucking nothing.
And this idea that the US was the isolationist one in this situation, when the EU literally just watched as Putin Installed a dictator of his choosing, while sitting on their metaphorical hands, is completely hypocritical.
How do you imagine it’s the EU responsibility to protect USA against Russian interference? And should have special knowledge about it to protect USA that wasn’t supplied? That simply doesn’t make any sense at all.
USA is supposed to be the “intelligence” superpower, having a huge spy network with facilities spread out among allies, and I know for a fact my own country has helped USA a lot on intelligence. and is a 7 eyes member. We were also the ones warning about nuclear weapons being on the way to Cuba back in the 60’s. And we have allowed US military on Greenland.
Why would we know more about Russian interference than USA themselves? But apart from that the Steele Dossier was from UK, and it clearly indicated Trump is a Russian asset, but the Americans have ignored ALL proof that Trump is obviously compromised, and elected him not just once but twice.
For instance I know one who was in the Danish marine, and they had top secret American spy equipment on board, that was kept secret also from Denmark, with no knowledge about what the equipment was, and what intelligence was gathered. Still that was allowed because USA was considered an ally.
One more insane comment like the 2 before and I block you.
Apparently you never fucking heard of the cold war and all the shit the US did to protect Europe during it. Maybe you should open a fucking book and fuck off.
I just gave you an example of immensely important intelligence that was given to USA from Denmark during the cold war. And you ask if I ever heard about it!
You are insane, I have hereby blocked you. Seek help.
The thinking that any of the current fallout in the US is foreign-led is not giving any good explanations for the reality we observe and therefore procides no good solutions. What you’re observing is primarily driven by the oligarch class in the US finding new ways to extract profit. That drives everything. It drives Fox, it drives the Heritage Foundation, it drives turning both parties in oligarch-serving machines. External factors are only helping accelerate it a bit. Feeding this machine with resources from the outside is a bad idea since most of those resources would be captured by the oligatchs. The only way out of this is to get an internal populist left movement to curb their power, reposses most of their resources and redestribute them to the masses.
If you don’t think it was foreign led then you have no idea what you’re talking about. It has been entirely led by Russia. Yes the oligarchs in the US have been a part of it, but they were unified and driven together by Russian interference in US politics. You want to ignore the part that Russia played in this, then you choose to rewrite history.
And your “only way out of this” – why don’t you tell me in small steps exactly how that happens. Lets hear it.
Oligarchs have been unified by their pursuit for profit long before Russia became able to push any sort of effective propaganda to Americans. The Heritage Foundation that peddles these ideas did not emerge from Russian interference in 2016. Neither did Fox whose entire purpose is peddling domestic oligarch propaganda. Neither did the Chicago School of Economics anti-worker takeover of national economic policy. US oligarchs did not offshore middle class jobs or bust unions on Russian advice. This has been going on for a lot longer than the last decade. The pushback started as a result of FDR’s redistribution policies that cut US oligarch wealth in the aftermath of the Great Depression. First slowly, then more quickly.
Campaign, donate and vote for “far-left” D candidates at every gov’t level - like AOC, Zohran, etc. Campaign, donate and vote for “far-left” independent candidatss where there’s no such candidates in that district. Join a union. Join a local socialist org. Eventually you’d tilt the balance of power in various gov’t institutions. Whenever you do that, you tax the rich to death. But that goes without saying cause every “far-left” candidate has that on their agenda.
E: FWIW, was where you are in my thinking a few years ago. I didn’t know as much about the historical development of econimic policy in the US, who drove it, who got richer, who got poorer, what tools were being used to do one or the other.
E2: And in case it isn’t clear how taxing the rich to death solves the problem, it deprives them from the money they need to buy the democratic system. It puts that money back into the majority’s pockets. Politicians have to fight for that money and therefore go back to serving the majority. They start passing the laws that you want passed. Like curbing online propaganda from both Zuckerberg and Putin. And many others that serve you instead of Bezos.
If on the other hand you eliminate all foreign propagnda with a magic wand today, all domestic propaganda will remain. Democratic control will remain in the hands of the oligarchs. They would keep making Americans poorer and poorer while scapegoating yet another group or actor. The most impoverished would completely lose faith in the democratic system because it no longer solves their problems. When the oligarchs propose a candidate who promises to solve the poverty (they themselves created) by dismantling democracy (since democracy is the only nonviolent tool that can strip them of their wealth), the desperate would vote for that. As FDR, and many others have explained a century ago.
It wasn’t the EU’s role to defend our internal politics. It was ours.
And we were also trying to be careful. More careful than we should have been.
The goal was to remain as non-partisan as possible while giving the public enough info to make the right decision. We all failed in that.
Yeah we failed because we didn’t use all avenues available to us. Including insisting upon the resources of our supposed allies. Although I feel those resources should have been volunteered considering the clear and present danger to our democracy and the fact that these NATO states were supposed to be our allies. instead we got next to nothing.
This alliance has felt incredibly one sided and at this point, with the US being heavily controlled by Russia I almost feel like Europe is just reaping what its sown. If there is a war in europe, europe will suffer, and it is their own faults for being willfully isolationist.